SCI-ART LAB

Science, Art, Litt, Science based Art & Science Communication

Two days back while I was searching for synonyms and antonyms for some words on internet dictionary sites, I was shocked to see that on some of them art was given as an antonym for science! The gray cells of my brain went into intense activity immediately and started analyzing scientific and artistic sides of my personality and mind to see whether there was any truth in it.

Although science and art are dealt in two different ways, developed and evolved as two separate fields, they are coming together again in recent times. Art and science are related in several ways ( please read my thoughts on this subject here:  http://kkartlab.in/group/scienceart ). According to old misconceptions, creativity comes mostly from the emotionally charged right part of the brain that doesn't deal with things rationally and logically. Scientific theories and thoughts originate in the other part of the brain (there are different theories that are coming out about functions of different parts of the brain in recent times, and the left part for science and right part for art is not actually correct according to these and whole brain works at different degrees in all most everything we do). Left brain or right brain works doesn't mean they are completely opposite. Leonardo da Vinci  disproved that these two fields are poles apart and  couldn't be dealt with a single brain at the same time. It is my endeavour to prove that these two fields could be brought together and made to live in harmony in a single box of grey matter.

I can use all parts of my brain simultaneously without any problem. Even while creating art works, I can think rationally and logically. Science has influence on my art and art too has some influence on my scientific thinking. In my mind I don't see worlds of difference between these two fields. 

Yes, science demands thinking at higher levels with logic and rationale. Creating art is easy and you walk here on a beaten track and the destination is preconceived in the mind of the creator. Scientific exploration is much more difficult and complex and one has to create new paths into unknown lands.

Although human emotions (yes, you can work in the field you love) come into picture in the scientific field - as is the case with all the ones where people are involved - they are not important at all like in the field of art. Therefore, a scientific mind tries to keep emotions at bay while working and this is important to clear the path while searching for truth and facts. It cannot allow emotions to fog the picture. A scientist cannot say " Because I love this - this is the truth!" or " Because I believe in this theory - this must be a fact!"

An artist has this luxury of emotions playing a major part in his work. He can push all rationale out of the window and say, " Because I love this - this is the truth and therefore I can create my work very beautifully!" He can live in a world of illusion or dreams if he wants. And there is no harm in it as long as his beliefs don't harm or affect others drastically. And in an emotionally charged right part of the brain creative sparks originate, develop and flourish.

A poet describes the moon as a beautiful object. An artist paints it in all splendid colours. An astrophysicist sees it as a natural satellite of earth with rocks and no atmosphere or life. When I think about moon as an artist, I feel happy because I could see it as an object of beauty - shining like a silver ball in the dark sky. And when I think about moon as a person from the field of science, I can still see the beauty of scientific theories like gravity, time, space and how wonderfully they are followed in this universe. Science too has a pretty view!

Now am I thinking as a creative person or as a person of rational thinking? Do these thoughts from different angles drastically change the perception of beauty? Not at all! These things don't have a clearly marked line between them in my mind! Then how can they be separate?! I feel these things are associated with human training of the mind. Your beliefs, dogmas, thoughts, opinions could have tremendous affect on how you perceive things in the art world. And science doesn't give you this choice. You got to see them in the true way in the latter case. With the right attitude you can see beauty of things both scientifically and artistically at the same time. You can think rationally about art too! Maybe I am lucky to be able to view the world from two different angles and  still see the beauty of it all!

There is a leaf or a flower. An artist enjoys the beauty of it superficially - yes only superficially. A scientist takes the help of a microscope or a spectrometer and sees the inside beauty as well. Believe me the whole picture is more beautiful  - as you go to cellular, molecular and atomic levels to understand it fully - you see more rhythm and beauty in the creations of nature. The experience of observing nature in its full splendor is more wonderful and thrilling. It is a new world. Trying to understand the world fully  is a heavenly feeling. A scientist can see more in this world than an artist!

Although scientific way of seeing things is deep, it is only an extension or expansion of observing beauty artistically. I don't think these two are opposite  ways. When artists try to draw pictures of what they see outside, scientists try to construct things that are deep inside. While artists see only a part of the picture, scientists see the whole picture!

An artist can close his mind whenever he wants and can still go ahead with his work (here "closing mind" refers to new thoughts, ideas and work of other people not about his own work or hand movements!!)   but in Science if you close your mind, that will be the end of your journey! This is because in art people create isolated works of different types but in science most of the work is inter-dependent as we live in an universe that is governed by the same laws of Nature!

You can break rules ( formulated by some people although they are not absolute ones) while creating art and can still produce masterpieces and in science if you don't follow rules of the nature, disaster strucks and you will be doomed ( can you disobey laws of gravity etc. while sending rockets into space?!) .

Yes, in art you have more freedom than in science.

In Science your work speaks for itself and you but in art you got to speak for your art and promote yourself to succeed.

These differences are not big enough to make art antonym for science.

Has at any time a conflict occurred in my mind because of art and science residing side by side there? No. Never!

Drawing figures of all that I see and observe in the scientific studies, research and exploration is a part of my work. I never think or treat it as a different field or entity. It is a part of science! If drawing figures is also art - how can it be an antonym for science? I don't understand how anyone can throw these two into opposite sides and say science and art are antonyms for each other! People who can use their brains  holistically  can disprove this antonym myth.

Just because the left part of the brain is more active in scientists and the right part in artists, can we say they are opposite? It is the same brain  ( or the same mind) that is working! A scientist can make the right part of his brain active too like I do and an artist can become a rational- thinking person. My mind and brain work as a single unit both when I am creating art and working on science problems. Maybe because I mostly create art works based on science and science is integral part of whatever I do, I don't see much difference. Yes, there are differences between how a scientist works and how an artist works but they are not completely opposite! My mind says: Battle of right brain vs. left brain?  Why not use both?

Sorry, my rational and logical thinking mind doesn't allow me to put science and art on opposite poles. And I can say with confidence that anybody who tries to create rift between these two doesn't know how to use his or her brain the right way!

PS...

(Here, in this part of the world, people say when your works and deeds help others and the society in general  in any possible way that is the right way of doing things. If they cause harm and ill will, that is the wrong way! Of course these are relative terms and definitions for right and wrong differ from place to place.)

 

Dr. Krishna Kumari Challa

Copyright © 2011

 

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Stolkhome Syndrome!

Dr. Krishna Kumari Challa said:
What is happening here? I feel very sad. But, I will have to take some harsh decisions for the sake of this network. For the sake of everybody's sanity. Sorry.
Mate, you don't know about several things that are heppening here!
giulia occorsio said:
This speech was a good start, then degenerated into a chaos crazy, do not understand what you mean, the prof.Ananda Australia would do better to go at a gallop by a kangaroo!
Dr. Krishna: you`ve always been very cool and considerated. Just incase you find some answers are not the level you pretend, (because is your page, and Internet`s world is huge), eliminate the ones giving headackes.Know you for years, and you are looking for knowledge and sharing yours in a lovely way. Any answer should  have the same level, with respect.Don`t let anybody intimidate you!
Sorry, Giulia, there are several things happening here and we have a few problems. You have been following this discussion very closely  but I have deleted some parts that are unacceptable. That is why it is difficult for you and others to understand fully. I couldn't do justice to everybody because of these problems. I am still trying to solve them. Thank you very much for your kind opinions and interest.
giulia occorsio said:
This speech was a good start, then degenerated into a chaos crazy, do not understand what you mean, the prof.Ananda Australia would do better to go at a gallop by a kangaroo!

Thank you, Paz, for understanding. you are a great friend. I don't get intimidated by people or situations but sometimes they bother me wasting my time! Yes, I have deleted some parts of this discussion that have words that are unacceptable in forum discussions.  That is why you don't understand it fully what has happened here.. My goodness is considered as weakness and people tried to intimidate me. Prof. Anand read some parts of it before I deleted them, that is why he got angry too and told me to be tough. Sometimes softness doesn't work! Now I have set things right. Hope everything goes well from now onwards.
Thank you once again for your support.


Marcelino Ferreiro Paz said:

Dr. Krishna: you`ve always been very cool and considerated. Just incase you find some answers are not the level you pretend, (because is your page, and Internet`s world is huge), eliminate the ones giving headackes.Know you for years, and you are looking for knowledge and sharing yours in a lovely way. Any answer should  have the same level, with respect.Don`t let anybody intimidate you!

I understand what you mean, Professor!

Mr. S has lots of knowledge. I respect him for that. He is a good friend of mine and helped me a lot before. But he is into several other things too! And what is worse is he is mixing up things and allowing all those things to cloud his reasoning power and logic with the result that it is becoming messy! And arrogance  - it makes the best people behave in a worst way! True education is the one that takes you towards the right direction. If you depend only on Wiki knowledge - which is not 100% correct in cases of science- and internet knowledge and think you are an expert- and if that takes to the level of arrogance , that is what happens. I feel sorry for S.


Anand G.V. said:
Stolkhome Syndrome!

Dr. Krishna Kumari Challa said:
What is happening here? I feel very sad. But, I will have to take some harsh decisions for the sake of this network. For the sake of everybody's sanity. Sorry.

I guess some followers of this page know very little of something. Let`s say , they are not artist at all and have no idea of what`s going on inside artists,(many artists have no idea either), or never saw a bacteria, like me.Some talk about quantic physics as if they knew every single detail, and risk opinions, which I find great, because they are somehow creating possibilities of getting somewhere, at least creating decent doubts, which is a good beginning .

That`s why this a forum, to share whatever we believe to know, or what we imagine, in terms to light that fire.

Hope we can make it in a friendly way, for everybody`s benefit.

Mr. S: it is a fact that, on the contrary, this is widely accepted in the world of science... quantum physics has clearly demonstrated this... it is not possible to avoid influencing the results of a scientific experiment during the observation... it's automatic, it's part of the process... in other words, what is being observed is never independent of the consciousness which observes it, nor is it independent of the circumstances of the experiment... the observed is never an independent entity in itself, but rather, the observation tells us something about the whole, which comprises observer + observed + conditions in which the observation is made...

Krishna: the observed is never an independent entity in itself, but rather, the observation tells us something about the whole, which comprises observer + observed + conditions in which the observation is made...
 This part of it is true
.

But saying that mere presence of somebody or his observation influence the results of an experiment is absurd and unacceptable in the classical world!! You are mixing up things here.  

It might happen in the  quantum world! Not in the real world we observe around us daily!

Pauli Effect is a baseless belief. 

Yes, without we observing things with our consciousness, there is no meaning for experiments and results even though they might happen. For example, an iron piece in the soil gets oxidised and rust is formed.  It happens eventhough we don't observe it. But only when we observe it, we will come to know that it happens and a meaning occurs then. . What the scientists say in the quotes given are true.  But I cannot accept that I can influence the results with  my presence in the classical world & is not true. Whether I am there or not, the experiment can happen and we get the same results! In  my experience, I got several results that are quiet different from the ones I had expected- both with & without my presence, with the result that I had to change my own opinion in accordance with the Natural laws. In that way I am not one with the experiment. Only when I am present, I am one with the experiment. When I am not there- sometimes , we leave the experiments overnight and even days together- then the experiment proceeds without us and we get the results- they can be in the way we expected or in any other way we didn't expect. In those cases, we are not one with the experiment and the results are independent of our presence! Our influence on the results has no relevance at all! don't  mix up things of quantum world and classical world and confuse us! 

That "people change things by taking measurements in a lab", or "when we observe things we change the nature of the reality we observe" is not correct even in the quantum world. It is actually the particle exchange that changes reality. Not our observations. Whether or not humans ever look at the particle exchange is immaterial. In the classical world changing the results by our observations is completely out of question! Get this right first.

Mr.S: it is a fact that, on the contrary, this is widely accepted in the world of science... quantum physics has clearly demonstrated this... it is not possible to avoid influencing the results of a scientific experiment during the observation... it's automatic, 

Krishna: without showing the proof you just cannot say anything you like. I have read a few topics on quantum phYsics but I never came across this and I never even experienced this while conducting my experiments in a lab, nor did my scientist friends. It might be some theory some one might have proposed it, but I don't think anybody proved it -but you used the word "proven" - then show us the proof.

Christopher Stewart said:
People who heard this story said I had paranormal abilities and started fearing me. But I don't believe I have any such abilities.  It was just a coincidence


whether or not it was a coincidence is not a fact, it's only an interpretation, a rationalization... it is as valid an interpretation as that of those who believe that you have paranormal abilities... the two interpretations merely reflect the respective belief systems of those who make them, but in no way are they representative of evidence, or fact... they are merely opinions...

 

the facts are : Krishna got distracted by the bird, Krishna said something to the bird, and then the bird got killed in the fan, and then Krishna was shocked and moved by the sad event... 

 

to affirm that there was no connection between the words said to the bird and what happened to the bird is not stating a fact, it's merely stating a baseless belief...

 

To say that "by the mere act of observation, they influence the results..." is definitely a baseless belief.  Nobody can influence the results of a scientific experiment just by observing it! Science doesn't accept such unproven beliefs!

 

it is a fact that, on the contrary, this is widely accepted in the world of science... quantum physics has clearly demonstrated this... it is not possible to avoid influencing the results of a scientific experiment during the observation... it's automatic, it's part of the process... in other words, what is being observed is never independent of the consciousness which observes it, nor is it independent of the circumstances of the experiment... the observed is never an independent entity in itself, but rather, the observation tells us something about the whole, which comprises observer + observed + conditions in which the observation is made...

 

 

I definitely have a role here to make people alert even if it has to be done at the cost of people branding me as a close minded person.

 

if it is indeed your role here, it implies that you actually take the time to inquire seriously about what is being generously offered so as to ascertain whether it is true or not... and not just reject it

 

 


 

 

And I leave it to members here and all those reading this to think about these things and decide what to believe and what not

 

 

have a good day folks ! :o)

Yes, without we observing things with our consciousness, there is no meaning for experiments and results even though they might happen. For example, an iron piece in the soil gets oxidised and rust is formed.  It happens eventhough we don't observe it. But only when we observe it, we will come to know that it happens and a meaning occurs then. . What the scientists say in the quotes given are true.  But I cannot accept that I can influence the results with  my presence & it is not true. Whether I am there or not, the experiment can happen and we get the same results! In  my experience, I got several results that are quiet different from the ones I had expected- both with & without my presence, with the result that I had to change my own opinion in accordance with the Natural laws. In that way I am not one with the experiment. Only when I am present, I am one with the experiment. When I am not there- sometimes , we leave the experiments alone overnight and even days together- then the experiment proceeds without us and we get the results- they can be in the way we expected or in any other way we didn't expect. In those cases, we are not one with the experiment and the results are independent of our presence! Our influence on the results has no relavance at all! don't  mix up things and confuse us! We are non_English speaking and don't get the right meaning as soon as we read something! It is not an error of logic but an error in understanding your English properly! Without understanding it, if you ridicule people, it reflects on  your mental makeup!

I am talking about the ordinary world and you are talking about the quantum world. There is a mis -match here.

In the article regarding Wiki link you gave, it clearly said if the Puli's effect, if it were real,---- so the people who wrote this article themselves are not confident that it is real! That is why I call it a baseless belief! 

Don't I know the cat's experiment? Yes, I do. A Piece of iron rusts in sand (oxidation) then  it will be in a potential state. I don't know about it until I observe it.. Only when I observe it, it becomes actual, i.e., it will have a meaning.  I know that too!   But if you say that my observing an experiment changes the results is beyond me. Whether I am there or not, the iron piece rusts - in a potential state. It rusts when I observe it - in an actual state. The end results (forming rust) are independent of my observation. I leave my experiments unobserved for several days ( in potential state) - when I observe or not the end results don't get changed. It is a relative point of view. In what way does the process of oxidation changes when I observe it? in what way does the results of my experiment changes  just when I am there? The end results will be the same. This is the ordinary world we perceive daily.That is what my argument is all about. Only the point of view of the world ( perception) you observe changes - not the actual result.
You actually said these words and are still there on art lab : it is a fact that, on the contrary, this is widely accepted in the world of science... quantum physics has clearly demonstrated this... it is not possible to avoid influencing the results of a scientific experiment during the observation..  - That is in quantum world, Chris!
I don't influence the results of the experiment .whether I am there or not, the results will be the same. The results will be independent of my observation. Only thing is they change from a potential state to an actual state. In the ordinary world I percieve, Chris. That is my argument is all about. I do know without an observer, there is no meaning to anything in this world. When I was young, I used to think no world exists outside of mine!
((((In the references you gave, the observer is not a human being  but a detector! The studies are still going on - but in what way the detector "influences" ( I would rather use the word - interferes with ) the results is still unexplainable. yes, some things interfere with the results (Like for example the Sun's radiation interferes with the earths magnetic field - (("influence" ))- when the radiation is cut off, you get a different result and if the radiation is there , you get a different set of results) And let us wait till the final conclusions are drawn  to see whether the detector  is influencing or interfering   with the results.))))


That "people change things by taking measurements in a lab", or "when we observe things we change the nature of the reality we observe" is not correct even in the quantum world. It is actually the particle exchange that changes reality. Not our observations. Whether or not humans ever look at the particle exchange is immaterial. In the classical world changing the results by our observations is completely out of question! Get this right first.
But instead of asking questions  and getting clarifications in a friendly way, you started bullying me and that is unacceptable to me.. "Freedom of speech is no excuse for harassment and bullying". Do it the right way in a friendly manner and in a polite way and we are game for your challenges. Even in seminars and symposia of science, if anybody tries to bully others, they will be immediately silenced by others. We here in this part of the world give more importance to politeness. I know when I deal with people from other parts of the world I cannot expect the same as our culture demands but when it becomes unbearable, you will not have any other choice. I am not jealous of you. I am proud of you. I am glad I have such a learned friend. I feel that is  how any individual should learn things & use his or her time in a proper way. That is why I keep on talking to you despite everything. But somehow you mix up things and your treatment of people you meet doesn't match a  person with great knowledge. In that way you still behave like a teenager.
I still feel you didn't put your words in a proper way for the non-English- speaking people to understand. Give me your word that you will never bully, fight or harass or waste other's time, and do everything in a friendly and polite  manner and promise that you keep your word, I will reinstate you  this very moment. 
I never consider myself as an expert in everything. My field is Microbiology. in all other fields of science, i just have a basic knowledge and not deep knowledge and I still have to learn a lot but that has to be done in an friendly atmosphere and not in a master- slave atmosphere here one bullies and other gets bullied all the time.. You said the ref. sent by me is by some unknown person. I consider everything even if it is said by lay men. Each and every point of view is important in understanding the world in a better way.
I can understand your pain and agony. I feel the same too for doing this to you. Sorry. I was forced to do this because your behaviour was interfering with my work and disturbing my piece of mind.
Most of the theories brought forward in Quantum Physics till now are still in theoritical stage and you cannot say they are absolute truths. Let us accept this fact first and make peace.
Have a wonderful day

How can an observer like me who gets results different from the ones I expected and had to accept them as truth becomes one with the object of observation?

you're making an error of logic here...

 

getting the results one expects, and influencing the results, are not equivalent concepts...

 

in other words, it is entirely possible for one person to influence the results of experiments, and still at the same time not get the results they were expecting... it is not because one influences a phenomenon that they necessarily impose their will on it... the former does not imply the latter...

 

one well-known scientist in particular, Wolfgang Pauli, was apparently famous for « making experiments fail »... even to the degree that the term « Pauli Effect » has been coined to describe the phenomenon... Pauli himself considered the effect to be real, and some other people did not... one of his friends actually banned him from his lab for fear of the effect...

 

for more on the topic : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauli_effect

 

now, as to why observer and observed are not independent, i suggest you find yourself a good book on quantum physics, from a renowned scientific author you can trust, and find out for yourself... obviously, whatever will be offered to you by anyone else will be rejected by your so-called truth filter...

 

that being said, have a lovely day ! :o)

I speak as an artist and no a scientist: the effect is equivalent Pauli, indeed, the scientist "non-interventionist" Pauli surreal to an artist that breaks through the reality little coded solutions ...

You are too good to be real, Mate!

Be warned: Devils don't understand the language of angels. If you sympathize with pests they will destroy you.

Only bullies can chekmate bullies.

Now that we got rid of the pest here, peace has returned. I hope you are happy now.

Krishna, if you come across any more pests again, just ping me, mate. I will handle them.

I will have to rush now. I have a meeting to attend. I won't be available for some days.

Take Care, mate!

Dr. Krishna Kumari Challa said:

I understand what you mean, Professor!

Mr. S has lots of knowledge. I respect him for that. He is a good friend of mine and helped me a lot before. But he is into several other things too! And what is worse is he is mixing up things and allowing all those things to cloud his reasoning power and logic with the result that it is becoming messy! And arrogance  - it makes the best people behave in a worst way! True education is the one that takes you towards the right direction. If you depend only on Wiki knowledge - which is not 100% correct in cases of science- and internet knowledge and think you are an expert- and if that takes to the level of arrogance , that is what happens. I feel sorry for S.


Anand G.V. said:
Stolkhome Syndrome!

Dr. Krishna Kumari Challa said:
What is happening here? I feel very sad. But, I will have to take some harsh decisions for the sake of this network. For the sake of everybody's sanity. Sorry.

Thank you for your advice, Professor. Will think about it.

Yes, I know how busy you professors will be. Get back to your work. If I need your help  again, I will let you know.

Thanks for everything

Krishna



Anand G.V. said:

You are too good to be real, Mate!

Be warned: Devils don't understand the language of angels. If you sympathize with pests they will destroy you.

Only bullies can chekmate bullies.

Now that we got rid of the pest here, peace has returned. I hope you are happy now.

Krishna, if you come across any more pests again, just ping me, mate. I will handle them.

I will have to rush now. I have a meeting to attend. I won't be available for some days.

Take Care, mate!

Dr. Krishna Kumari Challa said:

I understand what you mean, Professor!

Mr. S has lots of knowledge. I respect him for that. He is a good friend of mine and helped me a lot before. But he is into several other things too! And what is worse is he is mixing up things and allowing all those things to cloud his reasoning power and logic with the result that it is becoming messy! And arrogance  - it makes the best people behave in a worst way! True education is the one that takes you towards the right direction. If you depend only on Wiki knowledge - which is not 100% correct in cases of science- and internet knowledge and think you are an expert- and if that takes to the level of arrogance , that is what happens. I feel sorry for S.


Anand G.V. said:
Stolkhome Syndrome!

Dr. Krishna Kumari Challa said:
What is happening here? I feel very sad. But, I will have to take some harsh decisions for the sake of this network. For the sake of everybody's sanity. Sorry.

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